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SMiLE From The Inside: A Conversation with David Leaf

Abigail Devoe | August 8, 2025



“Y’know, I’m a fan. I just took it to extreme, what I’ve done in my life.”

Welcome (or welcome back) to my channel! For the Vinyl Monday season 2 finale, I covered the “lost” Beach Boys album and Brian Wilson’s masterpiece, SMiLE.
In a strange and wonderful turn of events, nearly 2 years later, I got to speak with author, “Beautiful Dreamer: Brian Wilson and the Story of SMiLE” director, and educator David Leaf. We talked all about his new book “SMiLE: The Rise, Fall, and Resurrection of Brian Wilson” – out today in the US!

Keep in touch:
Instagram: @abigaildevoe https://www.instagram.com/abigaildevoe/
My website: https://www.abigaildevoe.com
Tiktok: www.tiktok.com/@abigaildevoe
SpunIt (it’s Letterboxd for vinyl geeks): spunit://spunit.io/friendProfile?profile=sZN9N7hTusP0ifQ20TdlzbBvtHd2
I cohost the Dolls Podcast!: https://open.spotify.com/show/4JsH0rsXUNjgvFLIbwYgnK?si=798d0d6d67864c4e
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/unveiling-the-legends-dolls-of-the-60s-70s/id1749327932
I voice the bumpers on this radio show!: www.mixcloud.com/jkhoman
Follow the Vinyl Monday playlist: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/27N3dOWRJU7ydqY4f54nJB?si=bf7980c428c04340

Buy “SMiLE: The Rise, Fall, and Resurrection of Brian Wilson” here:
Amazon US: https://amzn.to/4fI5kmg
Amazon UK: https://amzn.to/49czwn1

David’s website: https://www.leafprod.com

Timestamps:

intro – 0:00
why SMiLE? – 2:41
why did Brian shelve SMiLE? – 9:52
Pet Sounds vs. SMiLE – 12:07
what do people love about SMiLE? – 13:07
the SMiLE story – 16:15
Brian – 19:28
writing an oral history – 24:00
editing the book – 28:28
getting fans involved – 31:35
anthology – 33:31
balancing voices – 37:05
Brian and Melinda – 37:54
drugs – 39:45
challenging SMiLE – 41:09
working title – 42:45
crucial interviews – 43:53
who do you wish you got to interview? – 48:10
being a fan – 50:47
what is genius? – 52:40
finishing SMiLE – 54:27
favorite SMiLE song? – 58:00
final thoughts – 59:38
thanks for watching! – 1:02:53

Music:
Outtro Music: Ticket To Nowhere Man by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution license (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/…) Artist: http://audionautix.com/

#beachboys #brianwilson #smile

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Written by Abigail Devoe

Comments

This post currently has 45 comments.

  4. @JasonMarsalis

    August 8, 2025 at 9:20 am

    When I was a kid in the 1980's, I heard the surf songs of The Beach Boys. In the early 1990's, I was listening to a radio show called "Schickele Mix" and he played music that
    I didn't recognize. It was "Heroes and Villains". He proceeded to talk about the album "Smile" and how it never happened. In that moment, I was so confused because my perception of the Beach Boys were their mainstream hits and not much else, which if you know anything about my last name is the ultimate irony. It wasn't until the early 2000's that I heard "Pet Sounds" and I understood what all the hype was all about. I bought "Smiley Smile" next and while I liked the album, I can understand why it was a disappointment in 1967. Then, Brian Wilson releases his own version of "Smile". I made sure to get the CD with the DVD documentary to find out what was going on. I was happy to see the album was finished and the music was a serious statement. "Surf's Up" is a masterpiece. When Abby mentioned different generations experiencing "Smile" in different ways, mine was hearing about "Smile" not having a clue what it was about until it was actually released in 2004. I'm glad to have discovered that music past the perception I had of Brian Wilson and The Beach Boys.

  6. @baneverything5580

    August 8, 2025 at 9:20 am

    "Democracy" (mob rule) has absolutely nothing to do with our first amendment rights except the fact that if it ever replaces the laws of our Constitutional Republic it will be used to take all our rights away one by one.

  7. @idiotsavant751

    August 8, 2025 at 9:20 am

    Hi Abi and thank you for your hair and earrings most of all your SMILE. Of course, it’s wonderful to hear from David. I didn’t really begin to understand the difference between The Beach Boys image and their reality until probably 12 years ago when I got a double cd of sunflower and surf’s up. The song Til I Die really grabbed me. But it was only very recently I saw the Smile concert and was just crying at the beauty of it. I find myself singing it and humming it to myself. This whole journey with Brian is like a modern Odyssey of Love. Just so this art could light up the heart. It may sound silly but that’s what it does and those who gave themselves to seeing it through knew it. It’s gold and no faking. Van Dyke’s lyrics in Surf’s Up remind me of Coleridge’s Kubla Khan except Coleridge didn’t have Brian Wilson for music. We did though at least some of the time. The beauty shines through. Tears and cheers! Take care

  9. @docsavage8640

    August 8, 2025 at 9:20 am

    It's just a shame that the version Brian Wilson gave us 40 years later was not the real deal and was wildly altered. And wasn't all that good as a result.

  10. @johncoltrane7899

    August 8, 2025 at 9:20 am

    Seeing Brian Wilson and his band perform Smile in concert at Newcastle City Hall was one of the most sublime moments of my life. When Our Prayer opened the Smile set I just knew we were in for something special. Amazing.

  19. @markzutkoff1800

    August 8, 2025 at 9:20 am

    "Lemme explain. No, there is too much. Lemme sum up." -Inigo Montoya, "The Princess Bride"

    Apologies for the late comment, Abby; I watched your excellent interview the day it was posted, but I have so much I could say about SMiLE that I delayed commenting. But it IS too much, so I'll sum up: I really enjoy listening to SMiLE, but I don't think it hits the heights of a Sgt. Pepper's or a Tommy. Brian's music is gorgeous, and Van Dyke Parks' lyrics have a beautiful rhythm to them, but they don't really tell a story (and yes, I know Sgt. Pepper's doesn't, either, but the individual songs are so strong that it matters less). And while I love the work of the Wrecking Crew, it puts SMiLE in a different category from those albums performed by a band. The fact that the original was unfinished hurts it, and while the "Brian Wilson Presents" version is a miracle, so many good parts were left on the cutting room floor. For example, there's a concluding verse of "Heroes and Villains" that I miss; it's been bootlegged but didn't even make it onto the "SMiLE Sessions" box for some reason, along with additional instrumental parts for "Child Is Father To The Man" that I wish they could have found a place to include.

    All that said, the interview was fantastic. You asked great questions, and you struck a good balance between being a fan and an interviewer. The one suggestion I have is that you mute when your subject is talking, to avoid the problem of little interjections that we all do ("Mm-hmm"; "Yes"; "Sure") to assure the person we're talking to that we hear them. On a Zoom interview, especially, it can cut off some of what your guest is saying. This is not a unique problem to you, and in fact, it appears less in this interview than your previous one. But I didn't comment on it then, so here it is. Please continue to post these interviews; they're great to start with, and they'll only get better. Well done!

  23. @rjpg

    August 8, 2025 at 9:20 am

    I thought your original Smile vid was excellent and you hit a another homerun with this. Great questions! Even David said that numerous times. Your vids will be regarded as must sees on this great album. If there is another video where you do another interview, I'll watch that in a second. Keep up the GREAT WORK!

  26. @S.Anderson1959

    August 8, 2025 at 9:20 am

    With 20/20 hindsight, we can now see that, with its modular structure, SMiLE could best be put together using the digital technology available today. Good Vibration, which incorporates the same type of approach, took months to complete, and that’s only one song! Brian’s ideas were literally 30+ years ahead of the curve.

  28. @bobhughes2290

    August 8, 2025 at 9:20 am

    Smile- where did I first hear of Smile? It was probably that Rolling Stone magazine David showed. Then I bought Smiley Smile- not the same thing at all. Then there were bootlegs all over the place. Very confusing song titles. The Track Lists didn't match. Then came the Beach Boys box set which had all kinds of Smile tracks on it, some of which didn't have vocals. Still very confusing, but beautiful. Then came the internet and Beach Boys fans all gathered on message boards and traded their own compliations of Smile tracks back and forth convinced they'd cracked the code. Then word came out that it was finished. That Brian was going to premiere it London, of all places! Sitting here in New Hampshire I knew I wasn't going to be there, but I had every confidence in Brian fandom, I knew if I got up early the next day, the entire concert would be posted on the internet and I could download it and hear every note exactly where Brian wanted it. For 17 minutes (side one) the audience was silent. Everybody in the concert hall was checking off in their minds which songs in which order, which verses had made the cut, which instrumentals now had lyrics and then WTFwas Surf's Up doing in Side One????!!!!! Pandeonium! All the applause which had been saved up during 17 minutes of total silence burst forth. I think it was 12 minutes before the audience became quiet enough to start side 2. (There were several false starts). There were a lot more songs on side 2 that hadn't had any words. It started off with the power tools. At least that was familiar. Vegtables, good. Ona Holdiay- a song about pirates?! Mrs. OLeary's cow (when I saw them a year later, they had actual flame effects all over the stage.) In Blue Hawaii. Now this was I Love to Say Da-DA. Sort of. Brian wrote songs from the bottom up. What David Leaf calls feelings. Somehow Van Dyke Parks listened to what Brian wrote and came up with a song about luaus. Amazing song, beautiful and then Good Vibrations. Sort of like an after thought. How can an album be so good that Good Vibrations is an after thought? Thanks for dragging out all these old memories.

  29. @magictransistorradio4933

    August 8, 2025 at 9:20 am

    I became obsessed with Smile in 1998 when I saw the VH1 documentary Endless Harmony! That is still the definitive Beach Boys documentary! Sorry, Disney. I started digging for Smile tracks on Napster. Then Brian started touring and did a Pet Sounds tour. Then he announced he was going to take Smile on the road! I remember when Beautiful Dreamer came out! Fantastic documentary by David Leaf! Then we got the box set of original sessions in 2011!

  31. @weezadam

    August 8, 2025 at 9:20 am

    Technically it also took Brian the same time to get from Surfin USA to Surf’s Up (1963 to 1966). To David’s point, The Beach Boys became a business venture sooner than the Beatles (until the failed Apple Records circa 1969). Fascinating stuff though. Abi you continue to evolve as a historian and musicologist! Beach Boys are my fav, sounds like they’re one of yours as well!

    Adam

  34. @angelajones4193

    August 8, 2025 at 9:20 am

    Til I Die surely references three of the four elements – Water (cork on the ocean) Earth (rock in a landslide) and Air (leaf on a windy day).The one he misses out is fire. Unsurprisingly perhaps. 'Elemental dear Watson' as Holmes might have said.

  38. @w8godot

    August 8, 2025 at 9:20 am

    Very impressed with your interview! I have watched both the Giggens interview and the Beach Boys Basement interview (both good, BTW), and you pulled out some great questions. I was given an advance review copy and reviewed it… loved most of it.

  39. @patbarr1351

    August 8, 2025 at 9:20 am

    Thanks, Abzzz! Brian Wilson Presents Smile is such an underappreciated disc. It had a lot of publicity upon release, but I've never heard it on commercial radio– classic rock stations didn't want it, college stations may have played it in the early 2000's, but they don't in the 2020's. I came to Pet Sounds through reading about it in the '70's & I had both the Capitol & WB mono LPs (neither sounded very good). Reading Mark Linnet's liner notes on the Capitol 2-in-1 CD sets brought the brilliance of Brian into sharp focus for me. I bought the Smiley Smile CD in the '90's but didn't get the big box set with Beach Boys rough cuts from the Smile sessions, so the Brian Presents version is the one I know. The version of "Good Vibrations" on that 2004 album is terrific.

  40. @timotley2100

    August 8, 2025 at 9:20 am

    This is the best interview of David I've seen, super well done. I don't have a favorite Smile song, but I think my favorite section is the iron horse section of Cabinessence.

  41. @TestTheCoals69

    August 8, 2025 at 9:20 am

    SMiLE is such a dense piece of art both musically and lyrically as if Brian transmogrified the works of Joseph Conrad into the realm of pop music. Leonard Bernstein put it best himself,
    "Top complex to get all of the first time around…Poetic, beautiful even in its obscurity"
    The amount of instrumental story telling that Brian gets away with is insane. No one else comes close. The cellos on Cabinessence sound like a train chugging along. The Trumpets on Child is the father of the Man sound like a baby crying. The way the strings sound on the end of Heroes and Villains as if impressionism meets surrealism and the colors begin melting. And the way Gee transitions into Heroes and Villains, the way Dorothy steps away from the drab sepia into the colorful world of Oz. Brian's love for Rhapsody in Blue just bleeds through, and the Beach Boys are heralding the world to come.

    I admit as a young teen listening to the smile sessions I was disappointed. Pet Sounds just seemed so emotionally mature. Brian had bared his heart. It was deeply confessional, and to move on to something like Smile, it seemed so childish, it was far too abstract for me to latch onto. But, the music spoke for itself. Some songs such as Wonderful and Surf's Up, I felt, had been truly divinely inspired while others like Vegetables felt like I was catching on to a cruel mean spirited joke. But, Brian, if not anything else, is earnest. That's his truest quality. And, there is no joke. If it has the appearance of a joke it's only because no one has ever dared to be that vulnerable without some form of trickery or pretentiousness. But Smile is the real deal. Brian explores concepts only before met by Hesse or Saint-Exupéry. Brian's real Genius lies in making the mystifying real. Democratizing the Avant-garde. Making pop records that are real pieces of art.

    I've spent years coming back to Brian's songs, he's the only person I can say that has made me love a song the more I play it. There's only so many times you can play She loves you, before it gets boring. But with Brian, everything seems so intentional. I mean you'd hope so with the hundreds of takes he'd make, it's as if he exhausted every variation until he settled into the right one. Everything seemed to fit in its place eventually. Even if it didn't seem like that when I first heard it.

  43. @brendongomez8267

    August 8, 2025 at 9:20 am

    This was wonderful, been reading David Leaf’s Beach Boys work since the 1990s and to hear his own story, was so great – Smile is the holy grail – great interview

  45. @RGRG3232

    August 8, 2025 at 9:20 am

    So good. Thank you for this. The interview I didn't even know I needed to hear but glad I was presented this. In short order, you've become quite the interviewer Abby. I'm excited for what may come for you and the channel (even though it's already great).

Comments are closed.

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