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Pieter Levels: Programming, Viral AI Startups, and Digital Nomad Life | Lex Fridman Podcast #440

Lex Fridman | June 23, 2026



Pieter Levels (aka levelsio on X) is a self-taught developer and entrepreneur who has designed, programmed, launched over 40 startups, many of which are highly successful.
Thank you for listening ❤ Check out our sponsors: https://lexfridman.com/sponsors/ep440-sb
See below for timestamps, transcript, and to give feedback, submit questions, contact Lex, etc.

*Transcript:*
https://lexfridman.com/pieter-levels-transcript

*CONTACT LEX:*
*Feedback* – give feedback to Lex: https://lexfridman.com/survey
*AMA* – submit questions, videos or call-in: https://lexfridman.com/ama
*Hiring* – join our team: https://lexfridman.com/hiring
*Other* – other ways to get in touch: https://lexfridman.com/contact

*EPISODE LINKS:*
Pieter’s X: https://x.com/levelsio
Pieter’s Techno Optimist Shop: https://levelsio.com/
Indie Maker Handbook: https://readmake.com/
Nomad List: https://nomadlist.com
Remote OK: https://remoteok.com
Hoodmaps: https://hoodmaps.com

*SPONSORS:*
To support this podcast, check out our sponsors & get discounts:
*Shopify:* Sell stuff online.
Go to https://lexfridman.com/s/shopify-ep440-sb
*Motific:* Generative ai deployment.
Go to https://lexfridman.com/s/motific-ep440-sb
*AG1:* All-in-one daily nutrition drinks.
Go to https://lexfridman.com/s/ag1-ep440-sb
*MasterClass:* Online classes from world-class experts.
Go to https://lexfridman.com/s/masterclass-ep440-sb
*BetterHelp:* Online therapy and counseling.
Go to https://lexfridman.com/s/betterhelp-ep440-sb
*Eight Sleep:* Temp-controlled smart mattress.
Go to https://lexfridman.com/s/eight_sleep-ep440-sb

*OUTLINE:*
0:00 – Introduction
2:03 – Startup philosophy
9:34 – Low points
13:03 – 12 startups in 12 months
19:55 – Traveling and depression
32:34 – Indie hacking
36:37 – Photo AI
1:12:53 – How to learn AI
1:21:30 – Robots
1:29:47 – Hoodmaps
1:53:52 – Learning new programming languages
2:03:24 – Monetize your website
2:09:59 – Fighting SPAM
2:13:33 – Automation
2:24:58 – When to sell startup
2:27:52 – Coding solo
2:33:54 – Ship fast
2:42:38 – Best IDE for programming
2:52:09 – Andrej Karpathy
3:01:34 – Productivity
3:15:21 – Minimalism
3:24:07 – Emails
3:31:20 – Coffee
3:39:05 – E/acc
3:41:21 – Advice for young people

*PODCAST LINKS:*
– Podcast Website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast
– Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr
– Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8
– RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/
– Podcast Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4
– Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/lexclips

*SOCIAL LINKS:*
– X: https://x.com/lexfridman
– Instagram: https://instagram.com/lexfridman
– TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@lexfridman
– LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/lexfridman
– Reddit: https://reddit.com/r/lexfridman
– Facebook: https://facebook.com/lexfridman
– Patreon: https://patreon.com/lexfridman

Written by Lex Fridman

Comments

This post currently has 45 comments.

  1. @lexfridman

    June 23, 2026 at 6:12 pm

    Thank you for listening ❤ Check out our sponsors: https://lexfridman.com/sponsors/ep440-sa
    See below for timestamps, transcript, and to give feedback, submit questions, contact Lex, etc.
    0:00 – Introduction
    2:03 – Startup philosophy
    9:34 – Low points
    13:03 – 12 startups in 12 months
    19:55 – Traveling and depression
    32:34 – Indie hacking
    36:37 – Photo AI
    1:12:53 – How to learn AI
    1:21:30 – Robots
    1:29:47 – Hoodmaps
    1:53:52 – Learning new programming languages
    2:03:24 – Monetize your website
    2:09:59 – Fighting SPAM
    2:13:33 – Automation
    2:24:58 – When to sell startup
    2:27:52 – Coding solo
    2:33:54 – Ship fast
    2:42:38 – Best IDE for programming
    2:52:09 – Andrej Karpathy
    3:01:34 – Productivity
    3:15:21 – Minimalism
    3:24:07 – Emails
    3:31:20 – Coffee
    3:39:05 – E/acc
    3:41:21 – Advice for young people

    Transcript:
    https://lexfridman.com/pieter-levels-transcript

    CONTACT LEX:
    Feedback – give feedback to Lex: https://lexfridman.com/survey
    AMA – submit questions, videos or call-in: https://lexfridman.com/ama
    Hiring – join our team: https://lexfridman.com/hiring
    Other – other ways to get in touch: https://lexfridman.com/contact

    EPISODE LINKS:
    Pieter's X: https://x.com/levelsio
    Pieter's Techno Optimist Shop: https://levelsio.com/
    Indie Maker Handbook: https://readmake.com/
    Nomad List: https://nomadlist.com
    Remote OK: https://remoteok.com
    Hoodmaps: https://hoodmaps.com

    SPONSORS:
    To support this podcast, check out our sponsors & get discounts:
    Shopify: Sell stuff online.
    Go to https://lexfridman.com/s/shopify-ep440-sa
    Motific: Generative ai deployment.
    Go to https://lexfridman.com/s/motific-ep440-sa
    AG1: All-in-one daily nutrition drinks.
    Go to https://lexfridman.com/s/ag1-ep440-sa
    MasterClass: Online classes from world-class experts.
    Go to https://lexfridman.com/s/masterclass-ep440-sa
    BetterHelp: Online therapy and counseling.
    Go to https://lexfridman.com/s/betterhelp-ep440-sa
    Eight Sleep: Temp-controlled smart mattress.
    Go to https://lexfridman.com/s/eight_sleep-ep440-sa

  2. @pigreatlor

    June 23, 2026 at 6:12 pm

    pieter levels software is so fkin shit. it looks like crap, and behaves like crap.
    he is the worst and most overrated developer. none of his "startups" have exited because his codebase is complete crap.

    i bought a subscription from one of his software and it made a mistake and charged the annual bill.

    no customer service.

    no email that was working. even his "legal" email was going to an error.

    he is a big time scammer.

    had to go through my bank and visa to get my money back.

    he didnt reply on X either.

    just take a look at his websites, all look unprofessional

  3. @elviscio83

    June 23, 2026 at 6:12 pm

    Totally true this continuos move to a new framework is nonsense. JQuery can still do an excellent job, especially for prototypes. And to pivot quickly a business you need pragmatism, not fancy tools and elegant tech solutions. I now use node js on aws lamnda with dynamo, jsdoc, serverless, very pragmatic tools, and no worries with downtimes and scaling

  4. @DashingChannel

    June 23, 2026 at 6:12 pm

    i have started feeling like i am in a race of innovation and i am losing my money by sitting idle, where i can just start doing something innovative or helpful for the community which will benefit both of us. feel like i can make money i just have to start thinking like i am an innovator, bcz i am feeling like someone else is gonna grab this opportunity if i don't start right now

  5. @damianchang6439

    June 23, 2026 at 6:12 pm

    In 2005 Nike had a letter of commitment to Messi it wasn’t a full on contract it’s for this likely reason Messi’s father’s email was overlooked. When in 2006 Messi switched to Adidas and they offered him a contract Nike woke up and they went to court but Messi won as the judge sided with them citing he only had a letter of commitment with Nike. Christiano Ronaldo signed a lifetime deal with Nike in 2015 and Messi signed a lifetime deal with Adidas in 2016.
    I personally believe as football (soccer) is a far reaching global sport compared to basketball and played non professionally by kids to adults in every continent Messi’s overall sponsorship deal could prove more lucrative even though it’s purely on football boots and training gear and football shirts etc. Additionally Messi will have a cut of Apple TV MLS percentages and his sports drink is already supplying ALL MLS pro teams so I think he will gradually end up becoming a wealthier billionaire when compared to MJ who is currently wealthier at about $3 compared to Messi’s approx net worth of $1.49B.

  6. @FzR123

    June 23, 2026 at 6:12 pm

    The use of production directly without testing is crazy but it makes him very funny haha he is right about big companies but If I was him I would use at this level a testing env , maybe not in the beginning but in that stage sure!

  7. @Ivan_Stereotekk

    June 23, 2026 at 6:12 pm

    I'm from Russia. Since 2006 i've been released electronic music on independent record labels. It took about 10-12 years that i started obtaining royalties from my music. I just started feeling happy for it that made me free to travel and pay for cheap houses enough paying part of expenses. Then started known war and of course distribution companies cut me off everything arguing that is sanction politic to do not pay to me anymore. In 2022 i decided to change something in my life tried to earn by coding that probably should make me potential to travel and work everywhere.I started exploring Python backend things and Next.JS hoped to get the remote job. But it's sad to say that i can't get job since April though i started working as junior dev for companies. Looks like i've been banned by hidden power. Currently living in basement area in Moscow with totally no money no power to be creative like deeply depressed. Feels like ruined my life because of political issues. Anyway i wanna say thanks to people who supports open technologies and free education that makes people choosing their lifestyle and thinking how. Thanks for interview with Peter that was really inspirational for me also i took energy and hope from it !

  8. @Ivan_Stereotekk

    June 23, 2026 at 6:12 pm

    I'm from Russia. Since 2006 i've been released electronic music on independent record labels. It took about 10-12 years that i started obtaining royalties from my music. I just started feeling happy for it that made me free to travel and pay for cheap houses enough paying part of expenses. Then started known war and of course distribution companies cut me off everything arguing that is sanction politic to do not pay to me anymore. In 2022 i decided to change my behavioural pattern try to earn by coding that probably should make me potential to travel and work everywhere.I started exploring Python backend things and Next.JS hoped to get the remote job. But it's sad to say that i can't get job since April though i started working as junior dev for companies. Looks like i've been banned by hidden power. Currently living in basement area in Moscow with totally no money no power to be creative like deeply depressed. Feels like ruined my life because of political issues. Anyway i wanna say thanks to people who supports open technologies and free education that makes people choosing their lifestyle and thinking how. Thanks for interview with Peter that was really inspirational for me also i took energy and hope from it ! 2:41:26

  9. @Oliver-d1t

    June 23, 2026 at 6:12 pm

    As a nomadlist customer, the abandonware feel of it was disappointing. Not bashing him for it – from an earnings perspective probably the right play. But it kinda sucked from a user pov. A lot of prominent nomads at the time were hawking it for commission and it felt very overpromised/underdelivered.

  10. @vadim_vdm

    June 23, 2026 at 6:12 pm

    Listening to this at 5 a.m. in Thailand while working on my own ideas. Your podcast is genuinely motivating. Thank you for keeping curiosity and clear thinking alive. Warm greetings from Southeast Asia.

  11. @herantd

    June 23, 2026 at 6:12 pm

    I love the fact that two poeple who actually build and ship stuff have never tried serverless frameworks. It's just shows that it doesn't really matter what you use to accomplish whatever you set yourself to accomplish

  12. @brentfarwick2182

    June 23, 2026 at 6:12 pm

    I just love both of these men for their humility and honesty. Pieter never, ever tries to convince you of anything but his ignorance (in the good sense) and his willingness to do the work needed to overcome deficits in his knowledge and skills, but only where needed — he remains ever aware of the shortness of his days. I was delighted to be surprised by how good this interview was. I've been surprised by a number of Lex's podcasts that I thought wouldn't really be my cup of tea, but turned out to be mesmerizing listening. The interview with Peter Wang (#250) was another that surprised me — I mean I like Python (strictly as a hobbyist) but nearly three hours with a Python guy? But there was so much more than just programming stuff. Hikaru Nakamura (#330) had my complete attention, too. And my knowledge of chess is limited to the basic rules and a history of pretty much losing every game I've ever played. But Hikaru, though very different from Pieter, showed the same openness, vulnerability, and humility that Pieter did. Both have achieved so much. And that drew me in. There's a lesson in there somewhere.

  13. @SuperMemoVideo

    June 23, 2026 at 6:12 pm

    20:00 Fridman feels like a loser (sometimes)? That's pretty surprising. Probably good sleep is all you need. I write a song, and if 1 person likes it, I feel fulfilled 🙂 … with 4. 8M subscribers, you should feel needed. Or is it overwhelming? … It must be insufficient sleep! 🙂

    (ah yes, I am listening to this lying in a dark room, but this piece feels pretty joyous!)

  14. @snapback3000

    June 23, 2026 at 6:12 pm

    I Enjoyed the podcast! Some push back…you guys both mentioned “most developers are mediocre or not that great”…it seems you were mostly referring to web developers…question how do you guys know what bad or mediocre looks like if you are not decent web developers yourself? Didn’t DHH say something similar on your podcast, you can’t judge what you know nothing or very little about. 😉

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