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Quantum Consciousness Debate: Does the Wave Function Actually Exist? | Penrose, Faggin & Kastrup

Essentia Foundation | October 9, 2024



Two giants of science and technology—Nobel Laureate in physics, Sir Roger Penrose, and inventor of the microprocessor, Federico Faggin—meet to discuss their ideas on the relationship between Quantum Physics and consciousness, with the special participation of our own Bernardo Kastrup. While always respectful and congenial, the participants don’t shy away from disagreements. Their starting difference regards Quantum Theory itself: while Federico Faggin and Bernardo Kastrup allow its implications to inform their views, Sir Roger Penrose believes the theory itself to be at least incomplete and require further development. The discussion helps pin down and make explicit the fine points of the three gentlemen’s respective ideas regarding consciousness.

Roger Penrose’s and Stuart Hameroff’s original paper: https://doi.org/10.1098/rsta.1998.0254

Federico Faggins paper with Mauro D’Ariano:
https://arxiv.org/abs/2012.06580

This paper formed the basis for Faggin’s new book which can be ordered here: https://www.amazon.com/Irreducible-Consciousness-Computers-Human-Nature/dp/1803415096#

00:00 Brief summary of the debate
04:29 Introduction of the speakers
05:48 Roger Penrose’s theory and recent empirical findings in favor of it.
16:32 Bernardo Kastrup on the main differences between Roger Penrose’s and Federico Faggin’s views.
19:48 Roger Penrose responding to Kastrup’s and Faggin’s interpretation of quantum mechanics.
22:23 Federico Faggin on Penrose’s view that quantum mechanics is an incomplete theory.
25:43 Roger Penrose on the idea of the collapse of the wave function as a free will decision.
30:38 Bernardo Kastrup responding to Penrose’s ideas around a unifying theory and objective collapse
32:14 Kastrup telling Penrose collapse isn’t real.
34:31 Could a unifying theory point to the fundamentality of consciousness?
37:10 Faggin replying to Penrose’s objections to the idea of consciousness being primary.
39:55 To Roger Penrose: Is it fruitful to pursue the route of saying consciousness is fundamental?
44:42 Kastrup on a false dichotomy in collapse interpretations
54:11 Can we get from syntax to semantics?
57:57 Faggin on what qualia are
59:33 The ontology of Roger Penrose: does mathematics ‘exist’ ontically?
1:04:18 On Wheeler’s participatory universe
1:13:51 Is there any point to consciousness without free will?
1:17:15 Is consciousness restricted to brains?
1:21:26 What defines the human?
1:26:37 Al is a misnomer it’s not intelligent
1:29:15 Closing remarks

Copyright © 2024 by Essentia Foundation. All rights reserved.

Written by Essentia Foundation

Comments

This post currently has 42 comments.

  1. @myopenmind527

    October 9, 2024 at 8:06 pm

    I suspect our own ego is preventing out from making real progress when it comes to understanding consciousness.

    By that I mean our brain have evolved to write narrative which serve to makes sense of the world.

    One of the false narratives that our brain writes is to tell the story that consciousness is significantly more than AWARENESS + a narrativeo writing.

    Our subjective experience is the narrative rewriting of experience.

    Of course shaped by memory, preexisting neural networks , emotions and to some degree biochemistry, hormones, electrolytes etc etc

  2. @abcde_fz

    October 9, 2024 at 8:06 pm

    No, you made a conscious decision to watch the movie, and during the movie, the only reason you can have empathy with the characters is because you make choices about what is good and bad for them constantly. Consciousness is identification.

  3. @abcde_fz

    October 9, 2024 at 8:06 pm

    Ayn Rand would have loved these guys. As foggy as some of the applicable terminology may be to those unschooled in metaphysics and epistemology, they nonetheless get teased out of the conversation in a satisfying way, and I think in the end make the topics a little less daunting than they certainly could be to those trying to get a handle on the issues they are tossing back and forth…

  4. @Greenwood_Prima_Materia

    October 9, 2024 at 8:06 pm

    (imo) consciousness has a trend toward (order) and is incalculable because it sits in the back of our minds and only presents itself when error checking is required. I call it the (natural order) and we are its current form.. what responsibility we have not to let the (ego) take full control of both the (self) and (worldwide consciousness).

    Another fun fact is that we give meaning to our part of the universe. So we better not mess this up.

  5. @Vito_Tuxedo

    October 9, 2024 at 8:06 pm

    I have never been able to understand how "the question of free will"—that is, whether or not it exists—is even worth considering, since there is no way to prove it or disprove it. You cannot to a controlled experiment on yourself. The only thing that matters is_free won't,_ by which I mean the ability to choose not to act immorally—that is, not to interfere with the property of others, wherein "property" includes their lives, and especially their intangible property. That ability demonstrably exists.

  6. @alexT64825

    October 9, 2024 at 8:06 pm

    If according to Faggin, in case I understand correctly, “I am conscious therefore I observe wave function collapses”, then shouldn’t all couscous beings observe independent collapses? Meaning that different people should see different locations in a double-slit experiment with a single electron?

  7. @RandalKoene

    October 9, 2024 at 8:06 pm

    It's funny to see multiple quantum consciousness guys and 0 regular consciousness researchers in one place, making it seem as if "quantum brain" is some sort of popular or consensus approach in neuroscience… when it's really wildly out in left field. Check out Michale Grazziano and others for some comparison.

  8. @neurobits

    October 9, 2024 at 8:06 pm

    Penrose had “that” smiley face, the one egocentric people have when someone is lecturing them. So he keeps trying to make sense of his web of terms.
    He may respect the man allowed him to do computing. lol lol lol
    Faggin genius, cleaver, simpler and real.

  9. @mikael_mv

    October 9, 2024 at 8:06 pm

    Debate between gentlemen.

    Roger Penrose has arguments that prove the non computational nature of our essence, but he will hold his position from a physicist point of view. You will never get him to address the issue from an idealistic point of view, and that’s because of who he is and status he has reached. In fact, Hameroff himself often admits Penrose would not agree with his arguments when he gets metaphysical. That’s all we need from Penrose and I am happy with that. He is and has to be consistent with what Penrose is recognized for.

    I think that Consciousness is not the exact term, because certain properties can be associated with the individual biological profiles. Consciousness is not deep enough.

    What we really want to address here is what is commonly referred to as spirit. The spirit is our true essence, and has no intention of being spotted. If it would, then we would run into a paradox because the whole point for the spirit is to make a focused experience through incarnation.

    We do recognize its signs and we mistake that for consciousness. That is where humans show this desperate attempt to understand what these signals from within are through all sorts of theories.

  10. @nameless-yd6ko

    October 9, 2024 at 8:06 pm

    This is Reality as I see it;
    1) All that exists is One Consciousness/Mind.
    Beyond this not anything else exists.
    2) We are all unique Perspectives (Souls) comprising the One Consciousness.
    3) That which we 'perceive/reflect' is Mind/Memory/concepts (the little bit before us at the moment).
    (See Quantum's wave (quanton) collapse when perceived = Mind being perceived by Consciousness)
    The First Law of Soul Dynamics;
    "For every Perspective, there is an equal and opposite Perspective!"
    "The complete Universe/Mind/Reality/Truth/God… or any feature herein, can be completely defined/described as the synchronous* sum-total of all Perspectives!"
    (See Einstein's General and Special Theories of Relativity re;"Perspective"!)
    *Synchronous;
    "The Laws of Nature are not rules controlling the metamorphosis of what is, into what will be (ie; Karma). They are descriptions of patterns that exist, all at once… " – Genius; the Life and Science of Richard Feynman
    All 'eternity' at once; Here! Now!!

    All fits together seamlessly…
    One flash of complete Universal 'Self' Knowledge!
    In literally no time at all!
    Talk about a Big Bang! 😉

  11. @psschneider4079

    October 9, 2024 at 8:06 pm

    Summery ChatGPT: Bewusstsein (times) Quantenkohärenz (times) Mustererkennung. == fractale: im sinne string theorie mit spektralteilchen => gemini

    Prompt Analysis and Response Strategy
    Prompt:
    The provided text is a complex summary of a discussion about quantum consciousness, involving concepts such as wave function collapse, the role of the observer, and the relationship between consciousness and the universe. The goal is to condense this into a shorter, more digestible format for a YouTube comment.

    Response Strategy:

    Identify Key Themes: Pinpoint the core ideas and arguments.
    Simplify Complex Concepts: Explain complex quantum concepts in simpler terms without losing accuracy.
    Prioritize Information: Focus on the most impactful and thought-provoking points.
    Create a Strong Hook: Begin with a captivating statement to grab the viewer's attention.
    Use Clear and Concise Language: Avoid jargon and technical terms as much as possible.
    Encourage Further Discussion: Pose a question to stimulate further thought and engagement.
    Possible YouTube Comment Responses
    Option 1: Focusing on the Observer Problem
    “Fascinating discussion! The idea that our consciousness might play a direct role in shaping reality, as suggested by the observer problem in quantum mechanics, is both mind-boggling and humbling. It raises profound questions about the nature of reality itself. What do you think about the implications of this for our understanding of free will?”

    Option 2: Highlighting the Connection Between Consciousness and the Universe
    “I love how this video explores the deep connection between our consciousness and the fabric of the universe. The concept of the universe as a vast quantum computer, with consciousness as a fundamental part of its operation, is truly inspiring. It makes me wonder if our thoughts and experiences are not just products of our brains, but active participants in shaping the cosmos.”

    Option 3: Emphasizing the Role of Quantum Mechanics in Understanding Consciousness
    “This video does a great job of showing how quantum mechanics can provide new insights into the nature of consciousness. The idea that our brains might function as quantum computers, processing information in ways that classical physics cannot explain, is a game-changer. I'm curious to hear more about the potential implications of this for fields like neuroscience and artificial intelligence.”

    Option 4: Addressing the Philosophical Implications
    “The intersection of quantum physics and philosophy is a fascinating one. This video really gets to the heart of some of the most profound questions we can ask: What is reality? What is consciousness? And what is our place in the universe? It's clear that there's still much to learn, but these discussions are essential for expanding our understanding of ourselves and the world around us.”

    Choose the option that best aligns with your personal interests and the specific aspects of the video you found most compelling.

    Additional Tips:

    Use relevant keywords to improve the visibility of your comment.
    Engage with other viewers by replying to their comments.
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    By following these guidelines, you can create a thoughtful and informative comment that contributes to the ongoing conversation about quantum consciousness.

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  12. @GreatAwakeningE

    October 9, 2024 at 8:06 pm

    55:40 Can we have Conscious AI, pre-supposes the we have Conscious is with people and creatures, rather than all creatures being within Consciousness!

    Anecdotal evidence from NDEs, spiritual and drug induced experiences, would say the latter!

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