Interview: Hobbits, Neanderthals, and Dragon Man | Particles of Thought
What if Homo sapiens weren’t the only humans?
Paleoanthropologist Ella Al-Shamahi joins Hakeem to explore a lost world where Homo sapiens once shared the planet with at least seven other human species. They dig into Neanderthal culture, the mysterious Denisovans, and the ancient DNA discoveries rewriting the story of who we are. Then Ella turns the lens on herself, sharing her personal journey from creationist to becoming a leading expert on human evolution, and the long, difficult journey that challenged everything she thought she knew. It’s a conversation about human origins in every sense of the phrase.
Particles of Thought is back for Season 2!
🎧 Available on your favorite podcast platforms
Amazon Music: https://bit.ly/4msqqby
Spotify: https://bit.ly/3Hz8rkI
Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/4oB3Ten
If you enjoyed this podcast, please consider leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Your feedback helps new listeners find the show and allows us to continue creating great science content. Thank you for your support! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/particles-of-thought/id1832615266
⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
Ella Al-Shamahi is a paleoanthropologist and explorer, and presenter based in London. She specializes in human evolution and has conducted fieldwork in some of the world’s most dangerous and remote regions in search of fossil evidence of our earliest ancestors. She is a TED speaker and has appeared in numerous science documentaries, including hosting NOVA and BBC’s five-part series HUMAN, available on the PBS App and NOVA’s website.
Particles of Thought is hosted by Hakeem Oluseyi, an astrophysicist, author, STEM educator, multi-patented inventor, science journalist, TV personality, science communicator, and inspirational speaker. His research is based on “hacking stars” to understand our universe better and develop innovative new technologies. Oluseyi’s work has resulted in 11 patents and more than 100 publications covering contributions to astrophysics, cosmology, and plasma physics and the development of space missions, observatories, focal plane instruments, detectors, semiconductor manufacturing, and ion propulsion.
📰 Stay up to date on the latest science discoveries, full episodes, articles, videos, and more by signing up for NOVA’s newsletter here: https://to.pbs.org/4brCC7Y
▶️ Stream NOVA documentaries & more with PBS Documentaries on Prime Video: https://amzn.to/4hXBlsu
💙 Help us bring the universe closer to home. Your donation ensures that NOVA’s deep-space discoveries and quantum physics explorations remain free and inspiring for the next generation of scientists. Support fact-based storytelling today. https://bit.ly/48UnsrD
🌟 Follow on social for more NOVA content
Twitter: https://twitter.com/novapbs
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/novapbs
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@novapbs

@abstract5249
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
I also went into science fully intending to resist it. But it just made too much sense.
@44bonkers
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
To be clear… Africans are 100% HUMAN.. Neanderthal (tal) strains are in Europeans. By the way, Ella is HOT and Super smart. A great combination.
@Anson120
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
I want her as a girlfriend hehehh Life would not be boring. 🥰🥰🥰😆😆
@johnphillips2479
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
The best part is how you showed the scientific evidence parallels the book of Enoch.
@goldwingerppg5953
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
Nothing grows in a frozen mind. Kudos to her.
@JeffreyWertz-s9b2c
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
They should watch the movie quest for fire that was made back in the late 70s. It explains all of this because Neanderthal old men find a new Homosapien woman and they start to have sex with her and that’s exactly what they’re talking about about how they would do it, but the movies about finding fire because they have a fire person that carries the fire, but the fire goes out when they go into the water to escape a lion that’s coming after them
@chandi58
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
Such an interesting podcast. I wonder if Ella has written her memoire – if not she must. I would definitely read it. One of the best podcast I have listened to on you tube.
@DipcodeLab
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
My Nigerian brother 🩸 Oluseyi ❤
@janwoodward7360
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
Jean Auel series Earths Children starts with the famous Clan of the Cave Bear novel. She proposes several scenarios of cross group contact, some pleasant and some not. All of her subsequent books explore this thinking throughout the series. Nice to hear that these early theories are either being proven out or discarded.
@kaneshamorgan9635
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
I think the reason hybrid children and neanderthals were easily accepted into sapien communities is simple. We look so much alike the sapiens didn't realize they were a different species and vice versa. They probably just thought they were a different tribe of ppl like themselves. Idk, but this makes sense to me 🤷🏾♀️
@goldwingerppg5953
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
Hakeem Olyseyi, dad joke warning: Neanderthal should be called Neandershort
@TravelProfile-v6g
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
Should start off with asking the person to give a 30 second spill about who they are and why we should listen to them. I don't know her… 😀
She was awesome. Enjoyed this show.
@zperdek
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
Or, hear me out, one tribe killed of all males from other tribe and take their women with them.
@OD1canOD
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
What an amazing discussion! So insightful and informative! Despite it's difficulties, this is an example of the best of a platform like YT. Brain candy at its best!
@louisesumrell6331
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
I think that it's possible that the relatively few of us who left Africa and populated the world were/are simply more aggressive, downright blood-thirsty.
@robbleeker4777
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
So, that 20% is the part the aliens (Anunaki) added to our creation..
@habluehayaco2onn
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
Gee two people of color standing on the shoulders of the society and culture that white men created speaking fown to and denigrating the achievements white men made to allow you two a platform to abuse your white creators.
Gee so original… Oh and then…. Oh and where are the women… Ffs grow up child.
You both are endorsing stereotypes
@33bb33bb
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
27:05
… and what exactly was the product of that "intermingling"?
@1ACL
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
I think the Rig Veda talks about different human species living at the same time.
@johnmclaren6
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
What? Every primate group out there is obsessively grooming themselves and each other. Given some language, ritual and performance is only a few steps away.
@johnmclaren6
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
300,000 years ago- when some primates started singing*, being *artistic and developing a capacity for *language*, which became the foundation of internal dialogue and rational thought.
But the old male/testosterone primate instincts for violence and sexual competition unfortunately came along for the ride.
@johnmclaren6
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
Oh yeah – the ancient aliens! Just ask Flint Dibble…
@Juan-zn7wd
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
Doesn't Niel peralmen Hellboy have that skull type ?
@Lisa-m5i1k
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
Nephilim
@mtaylorfoofa
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
Maybe a good analogy would be cats! Since there can be a lot of hybrids but there are a lot of separate species
@Al-cynic
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
This conversation is not as far from the arguments flailing around in the early 1990's during my undergraduate degree in, mostly evolutionary biology. The neurobiology and proteomics conversations are far more interesting!
@ltdada
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
This is a candidate for 'best thing I ever heard.'
@bruceBZ
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
They really connect in this interview, such a wonderful watch
@MicheleMorris-qr4ut
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
Love Particles of Thought! Hakeem is a great interviewer & wonderful guests & fascinating topics. Keep it coming PBS
@Myshcan
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
I'm confused about our having the Neanderthal genome. In this video it was said that we have between 30 and 70 percent of the genome (31:50). How does that square with the Wikipedia quote that, "In May 2010 the project published their initial draft of the Neanderthal genome . . In December 2013, a high coverage genome of a Neanderthal was reported for the first time?"
@luizbotelho1908
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
So human species are on verge of extinction ?. Ours homini sapiens species is the last one?. Are we the " DODOS"?.
@ariahaneul
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
This was such an engaging conversation, please invite Ella back again! She's an excellent science communicator with such a warm personality. I've been watching Hakeem for years as the commentator/guest, it's nice to see him as the host.
@katedonahoe6789
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
Shes beautiful!
@jamesreynolds4152
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
As to creation there can be an intersection between the two. It need not be an either-or situation. Why couldn't a creator use evolution to enhance species?
@HGALAXIES
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
Logic, all is relative and uncertainty are the three columns of universe. Problem is, as humans we're all coming to this world in absolute stupidity and a small fraction are able to get out of that stupidity. She has been one of them along with the host of course.
@Oldfartonthemountain
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
I believe a very important thing is to keep an open mind. Call it discoverys, or whatever, it's constantly changing. All the time. In 2,3 or more we could find out things are way Way different. It's great to think about. 😮😮❤❤ Just remember we are all the same. ❤
@b1r2y3n
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
Is this made for children? The delivery is…odd.
@SJ_232
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
Amazing. Thank you.
@marthacoomber3188
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
Did this happen to other animals, plants, fungi?
@helenskene2849
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
Ok so ancient women thought Neanderthal men were really hot 🔥 and they happened to be sensitive lovers 🎉🎉🎉❤❤❤
@pierrebennu
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
Whenever I see either of these 2 people I click immediately. Ella Al-Shamahi sharing her personal journey brought a humanity to the field of study that is often missing when scientists are sharing their findings. Thank you Hakeem for being a great host. Thank you Ella for being a great guest. Thank you PBS & Nova for existing.
@A_Canuck
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
Ella El-Shamahi is excellent. Thank you for interviewing her.
However, I was somewhat surprised at the "informal" tack taken by Hakeem Oluseyi as he interviewed Prof. El-Shamahi. I suppose the intention was to make the material more accessible to audiences not familiar with the subject matter.
Nonetheless, I'm afraid that it came across as somewhat condescending.
@VivamosVisual
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
The 20% is aliens. It's always aliens. Because we are obviously the alien species on Earth. Seriously, watch the S4 documentary.
@Jennie48480
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
Thank you for the entire video, including the last conversation about culture. I think the best thing we could do is to teach critical thinking in every grade of every public school. Then children will have a way to cope with new ideas.
@susantownsend9340
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
incredible conversation. thank you for sharing.
@olmo-c9e
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
beginning to end informative
@kaoskronostyche9939
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
This woman is a sensationalist attention seeker. And al-Jigabuti is gullible. This is going to be another big splash in the shallow pond, never amount to anything and be forgotten in a week. Things that are "just breaking" or "leading edge" or "brand new data" are almost always exaggerated and just fade away with none of these yapping heads following up
@guavabakka
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
😅 love it
@abdulqudussaggu3222
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
@Ella Al-Shamahi of the Yemeni Syrian descent is an outstanding communicator and very well grounded in the subject she’s specialised in. It’s always a pleasure to listen to her and to learn from her. She’s empathetic to even people like who commented on this very podcast that ‘evolution is bullshit’.
@Didilolo6969
August 15, 2026 at 7:21 pm
Wow….